SurClaro Flight Simulator Resources

While going through some of the earlier posts in this forum, the one titled "help landing.." and the replies of Caro Ruas (highly informative) and that of Cobra Driver, one basic question. Cobra Driver mentions that you hold a descent rate of 400 fpm on approach. But I find that a after intercepting the glide slope I need about 800 - 900 fpm descent rate to stay on it or else i drift above the glide slope. So usually I follow this rate until I am above the inner marker when i disengage autopilot and adjut pitch to reduce the descent rate to less than 400 fpm. This process automaticall induces the landing flare I manage to touchdown in one peice (atleast in fs9). Am I wrong or is Cobra Drivers post wrong?

Oops! Sorry, that post was in lessons! Can/should I move this post there or what?

Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 3:07 pm Post subject:

Guys, Sorry. I seem to have done something and landed the same post in both FS2004 and Lessons! I had two windows open or something! But I believe I hit submit only once?!!! Sad

Edit by Exx: You didn't do anything wrong...I just moved your post over to lessons...

Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 5:51 pm Post subject:

What A/C are you flying in? a Milry. Jet, a passenger jet, a Cessna Citation CE 560 ULTRA, Bombardiae LearJet?
Whats your speed (KIAS PLEASE)?
Flap position?

i could tell you, but with the info you didnt give i cant give you a straight foreward answer. Shocked

King_Air

Edit by me: Oh, and from what ive experienced, you maintain a descent rate of 500FPM.

Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 9:41 pm Post subject:

You may wish to download the following file from AVSIM.COM Cool

DESCALC

DescentCalc allows you to quickly calcualate when you should start your descent when either assigned a crossing altitude or flying a STAR without the aid of ATC. Simply enter your current altitude as a Flight Level in the upper box, enter the assigned Crossing Altitude or the altitude indicated in the vertical planning section of the appropriate STAR chart in the lower box, and click "Calculate." The result is displayed in the box at the bottom.

Installation is simple: Unzip to the folder of your choice, make a shortcut to your desktop and double-click it when you need it.

Also see my ApproachCalc. Easily calcualate the altitude at which you should start your final approach on an ILS landing in order to ensure capture of the glideslope.

DescentCalc is a freeware program. Use it and distribute it freely (except on FSPlanet.) The copyright remains with me. You may NOT tamper with the coding in any way. Not for use in real-world aviation. The author assumes no responsibility for any damage that may occur to your computer as a result of using this program (nothing will happen anyway, but you know how the legal beagles are.)

Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 11:13 pm Post subject:

No, I do not understand. U see, I am flying an ILS approach in a Jumbo, on AP at about 1700 to 2500 AGL (IFR - assigned by the ATC), Flaps full, gear down, 175 KIAS and intercepting the localizer from less than 45 deg angle for a final descent about 10 - 15 m away from the runway touchdown point. After aligned with the runway I am still below the glideslope for another mile or two after which the glideslope indicator begins to move down.

At this point I set the altitude on my AP to zero and VS to -100. I believe at this point my aircraft has started to descend at 100 fpm. I slowly increase (or rather decrease) this vertical speed value in steps of hundred to -200, -300 etc as the glide slope indicater moves closer to the middle. And by the time it reaches the middle (I am on the correct glide slope - as also corroborated by the VAPI) if my VS is less than about 1000 fpm the indicator keeps travelling below the middle (I.e I am moving above the glide slope - too high). Only if my VS is about -1000 am I able to remain on the glide slope for the rest of the approach.

(Above the inner marker I disconnect the AP, cut throttle and flare to reduce my descent rate to less than 500 fpm and touchdown).

So is this all right or is there some way that I can descend at about 400fpm all the way and still stay on the glideslope as suggested by Cobra Driver? It doesn't somehow seem possible since there is only one glideslope and I seem to be on it when doing a 1000fpm descent.

Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 1:27 am Post subject:

Ook, thanks for the info.

your problem is the flap setting. you need to lower your flap setting so you can descend at the speed you need. On the final approach, set your flaps to 5-10*. I understand that some jumbos (most at least) the flap settings start something like: 1* 5* 10* 15* 20*, and so on. so, you should use 5-15* on your final. your speed seems fine, BUT with the flap setting i suggested, you might need to increase your speed a little so your autopilot doesnt try to "overcompensate" for altitude loss. the AP, IN APPROACH MODE, WILL TRY ITS BEST TO STAY ON, IN, AND AROUND THE GLIDESLOPE.Also, DONT touch the AP ALT. HLD., or VS!!!! if you do so, your asking for trouble. The reson being, when you are flying the ILS, the AP automatically shuts off the Alt. Hld. so the plane can descend. the AP does this immediately when you intercept the "Vertical Glideslope" if you will. I fly the KGRK ILS approach ALL the time, and i have absolutely no prob with altitude, or anything.

Try flying the approach. I have an actual Military Approach plate (of course expired) which was given to me by my dad (who flies the UC-35). email, or pm me, and i will give you the info you need to fly the approach.

if you need any more info, just contact me, i will be glad to help!!!

King_Air

Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 3:17 am Post subject:

OK, you mean landing using the Approach Hold (APP switch). I dont do that normally because I did not know how. I just learned about how to use that at this forum yesterday when I saw a posted video.

In fact I believe that I was mistaken when I said I fly an ILS. Actually I do not fly a true ILS or Autoland so to speak. I just use the autopilot to set me up on the runway heading and then disengage and fly it down by myself. You see my Approach Hold button is never turned on. Which means I set up the autopilot myself like for example by turning the Heading control to the exact runway heading when the localizer starts moving inwards, and reducing the VS when the glide slope starts moving down etc. I suppose I am doing what the Approach Hold does manually using the Autopilot. An unnecessary effort, I realize and a real b***h in a crosswind. Confused

This technique of using the Approach hold seems to be far easier and I will try the same.

Thanks for the input.

Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 4:39 am Post subject:

You are still using the ILS though. you dont HAVE to have the AP Apr. turned on to be flying the ILS. Just having your radio tuned to the ILS FREQ., and having your runway heading set (if you are going to land, and most likely you will be), in technicality, it is an ILS Apr..

PM me your email address, and i can give you the directions for the KGRK ILS APR.

do you have MFS8? i typically go to that version to get all my learning materials from it. That is how i learned some of my ILS APR. skills. very interestin.

King_Air

Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 5:27 am Post subject:

I have FS9 but I can see a fs2002.exe in the same folder. I wonder if that is fs8? Never tried though.

Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 10:27 am Post subject:

To answer the question...you can't use one set descent rate for every type of a/c out there. 500FPM will work fine on some, and make you do a flyby on others. CobraDriver was right, for the a/c he was using. But you can't apply that formula to all a/c.

Exx

Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 11:53 am Post subject:

OK, I got the point. I was confusing between the glide slope and descent rate. I had forgotten that the same glide slope would give you various descent rates for various ground speeds!

Sorry, I was not thinking. Sad

I also understand now what king air is talking about when he said the descent rate is dependant on flap setting. But then a higher flap setting would permit a lower air/ground speed and therefore a lower descent rate!

Now on this point, do all glide slopes make the same angle with the horizontal? If so any idea how much?

Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 12:46 pm Post subject:

Shankar,
I'm glad you figured out that descent rate is tied to groundspeed to maintain a specific glideslope. Now, on to your next question. Although most glideslopes are standard (I think it is somewhere around 9 degrees, but don't take that as gospel), not all conform to this due to terrain and other factors. Some are even set up to be very steep at the beginning, then level off past the middle or inner marker. I have seen glideslopes as steep as 30 degrees or more.

Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 4:42 pm Post subject:

Yes, what Flyr said. some ILS Apr. Gglideslope angles are different. FE:
The KGRK ILS GS, is 3.00*
The KIAH ILS GS, is 3.00*
The KAUS ILS GS is, 3.00*
And the KACT ILS GS is, 3.00*

I dont kow about KDFW, or KSAT, for i do not have the North OR South Texas Approach plate volumes. i only have the centeral Texas volume.
**NOTE**
ALL ILS GS ANGLES ARE NORMALLY THE SAME FOR ALL RUNWAYS OF THE SAME AIRPORT.

I dont really know about other state, or overseas airports, they may have different GS Angles.

As far as the flaps and airspeed are concerned, i wouldnt suggest using full flaps on your final. I have gotten screwed over one too many times as i reduced speed in preperation to flare, and touchdown on the RNWY while using full flaps. I've had to activate the spoilers to touch down...and that wsnt the smart thing to do. i quickly learned that.

Just go with 1-20* of flaps depending on the jumb you use (BTW: which jumbo do you use? i meant to ask you in the last post, but never did).

King_Air

Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 5:48 pm Post subject:

Thanks for all the info guys.

King Air,

I use the default Jumbos and also the POSKY Air India and KLM 747 200s with GE CF6-50E2 engines and the POSKY Quantas 747-400.

I am not very happy with the POSKY models though.

I think what you mention could be the cause of one of my frequent s***w-ups, i.e the moment I begin to flare, however low the angle, the plane refuses to settle and I too have to use my spoilers as you have mentioned!

Let me try the same technique at 20 deg flaps and see what happens!

Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 6:35 pm Post subject:

REMEMBER THOUGH...experiment with flap settings 1-20*, for you will eventually find the setting you need to be using for that A/C. do this with all of the JUMBO A/C you fly, and then make a note of the final flap settings you will need to use on your approach, and stick it on your PC Monitor. This way you will have instant access to the info you need. I typically adjust the flap setting accordingly to how fast i am going, and how close to the RNWY i am.

I kinda figured when i wrote my first post on this topic that you had some sort of prob. setting down. Its kinda typical. Remember, the more you increase the Wing Surface Area and the slower you go, doesnt necessarilly mean you will land, or in your case, set down on the runway.
Yes, this does increase the stall speed, but you might not stall 50% of the time. more than likely, you will have to preforem a Go-Around.

Also, MFS8 is mfs2002