SurClaro Flight Simulations Resources

Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 1:00 pm Post subject: IFR flight and ILS approach

hi. im having a problem with an IFR flight plan. i can get up to the point where the say ur eg: "20miles south of the airport, turn left heading 040 descend and maintain 5000. expect vectors ILS runway 34". after that nothin happens and the flight centre says that my IFR flight has been cancelled. is there smoething that i was meant to do during that time? cause i have no idea what it is or how to work with the radios.

Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 1:53 pm Post subject:

was there something you are supposed to do at that time? uh yeah... you already said it:
turn left heading 040 descend and maintain 5000. expect vectors ILS runway 34

Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 3:01 pm Post subject:

Pilotwannabe is correct. If you fail to comply with ATCs instructions they will cancel your IFR flight plan. They will normally repeat their instructions twice and then after that you are on your own. The same is true if you fail to comply with changes in altitude. You don't need to work the radios at this stage. All you have to do is follow instructions (i.e turn your heading bug or the stick to the required heading) and respond by pressing the correct key on the menu. You only need the radio for frequency changes, ILS approaches, or VOR/DME and NDB navigation.

Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 6:37 pm Post subject:

Do you acknowledge this ATC msg ("1" key)? If not, does ATC ask you whether you recd the last transmission? And then immediately afterwards if you dont initiat your descend to 5000, does ATC ask you to expedite your descend to 5000?

Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 7:15 pm Post subject:

Shankar's got a point. After they give you clearance, are you pressing '1' to acknolwedge?

Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 8:07 am Post subject:

sorry. i should've been more specific. i meant after i had turned and descended. what do they exactly mean when they say except vectors ils. do i have to refer to my gps or the map or kneeboard?

Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 3:00 pm Post subject:

By that statement I believe they are saying that they will point you on a course that will intercept the glideslope to runway 34 at an angle less than 35 degrees so that you can use the approach hold or whatever to do an ILS landing. I believe the problem you are facing can happen in FS9 if you are way way off course and the ATC has no idea what to do with you! (Meaning the game AI is not programmed to handle such situations...)

Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:51 pm Post subject:

oh but i have been following the correct heading and altitude. I also forgot to mention that this does not happen all the time. it only happens sometimes.

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 2:00 pm Post subject:

Like you, when I started with FS, (in my case 98 ) the whole concept of ILS (instrument landing system) was akin to swimming the Atlantic in glue. But, I found a site that someone had explained the concept and indeed carefully explained the use of beacons, and glide slopes. He did it so well even I understood it! I just then took his instructions on the demo that he explained and incredibly, it worked!! The important thing is each runway has it's own frequecy (NAV1) and not only that, each runway END has it's own frequency-hence the runway numbering.However as the lesson pointed out the number isn't necessarily the exact runway bearing.. i.e. Heathrow Rny 90R (right) is in fact on a bearing of 95 degrees. which is when the course heading is inputted on the autopilot settings.
If for example we use the Boeing 777, we should usually have (if on straight and level flight BEFORE approach to airport) the F/D (flight director) switch on, the master A/P on. and the green lights from left to right as (put simply) on/off/on/off/on/off/on..which is.. autopilot/navigation(course)/heading/approach/speed/Mach/ altitude.

Now!! when we're given the directions by ATC (assuming we're on an air port to airport ATC IFR flight) to make our initial line up to the runway chosen, we will be put usually on a path that may or may not be a straight in approach. Each airport (and runway) on the map has a clickable set of frequencies and other info, runway heading, elevation, length etc. Zoom in on the airport and find the frequencies. Zoom in more and note (THIS is vital) the frequency of the direction of the ILS glide slope beacon. e.g.. Rny10R may have an actual heading of 12 degrees, a glide slope frequency of 123.45.. BUT the other direction makes the same strip of tarmac Rny 19L on a heading of 192 degrees and possibly a frequency of 111.11..
As we pick up the frequency on the instruments (click them to nav, from GPS) we see a purple/pink line spark up and possibly a purple/pink lozenge on the right of the nav crt. when you're given the instructions from ATC to make your finals (and you acknowledge and follow them) it will usually line you up , then you do this:
Make the lights on the Autopilot read as follows..
on/on/off/off/on/off/on. this will make your aircraft find the glide slope. Which you can only lock onto if you approach from below it.
watch the lozenge.. as it moves down (as it should if you're below the slope) it will reach the centre, as it does, do this..the lights on the autopilot should read:
on/off/off/on/on/off/off the only two other than the master Autopilot switch lit should be approach and speed. the speed should be set as per the spec for the aircraft you're flying. I don't make it more than 190 for the 777. 20 degree flaps,auto brakes on (at 1 or 2) gear down (thats important Shocked

)closer go to full flaps and lights on-if you hadn't done that before. and let the aircraft gently come in to the threshold. approx 150-200 feet above, turn off the a/p. Making sure your throttles are minimum on the joystick. as you glide in and land,mains first as you flare, then let the nose come down.Roll, then click F2.. the reverse will come in, and the autobrakes should come up-they won't if you've left the a/p on! then,slow, F1 to cancel reverse, drop the spoilers (brakes) and go to the gate. Very Happy

I appreciate that the more expert will probably do things slightly (or totally!) differently to what I've suggested, but ultimately it is only a computer game.
I'm sorry it's long and I've gone on a bit, but I'd rather do it like this first time, it isn't meant to be patronising to you if you already know most of the above, but if anyone else is puzzled (as I was) it will hopefully come in handy.

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Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 1:00 pm Post subject:

wow! thanks heaps! i just tried it myself. it works nicely. thanks a lot! Very Happy

cheers

Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 2:55 pm Post subject:

You're welcome.. glad it helped Very Happy

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 3:37 pm Post subject: Perfect Description

HI James, thanks for the wonderful explaination. Infact I have a question for you. I know that the plane tends to lock on the horizontal and vertical motions and you control only the throttle /speed of the airplane during the final descent.

I want to know that whether on hitting the approach button, its possible to manually control the vertical alltitude and let the autopilot handle the left right movements of the aircraft.

Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 3:47 am Post subject:

I dont know, but an idea just hit. If you desperately want to do that (for whatever reason), what if you tune your ILS to the opposite runway and use the "Backcourse" switch instead of "Approach hold"? For examole if you are landing on runway 9, dial in the ILS frequency of runway 27 and HDG of runway 9 and use the "BC" switch instead of the "APP" switch. Maybe it will work the way you want it to. Very Happy

Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 8:15 am Post subject: Interesting Idea

Hi Shankar, your idea is quite interesting, I want to go home today and try the same. ... will post the results.

I found one thing to be done, if I want to mantain vertical control. Be below the glideslope at all times. Anyway when I am around 200ft above the runway, i put off the autopilot (pressing z). then its a free land, so before that i make sure that the plane is kept below the altitude as shown in the instruments to me.

This technique also allows for a smooth landing, on a boeing 737 with good load, I can land at around 150ft / min landing speed of around 140kts. Thats kind of a kiss in FS Passenger with a boeing 737.

Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 9:23 am Post subject:

Your idea may be applicable to some airports and daylight hours, but it can be a deadly mistake to make on other airports. The ILS is made in such a manner to keep the airplane away (laterally) and above (vertically) any hard surface obstacles that may find themselves on the approach path. Buildings, hills, construction cranes, radio station towers and so on.

You are allowed to pull the airplane below the approach path only after you've crossed your decision height/altitude and you have disengaged the autopilot.