Flaring

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shaunlibby
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Flaring

Post by shaunlibby » Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:16 pm

When flaring what is the best degee of pitch to go to. when i land at 165kts and i flare, sometimes the nose just shoots up. any idea why this happens.

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Post by SU37Berkut » Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:25 pm

Dear Shaunlibby,

Do you use flaps when you land?
Also, what aircraft are you flying?
I think 165kts is a little fast, even if you are flying a fighter jet.

Cheers,
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Post by shaunlibby » Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:26 pm

SU37Berkut wrote:Dear Shaunlibby,

Do you use flaps when you land?
Also, what aircraft are you flying?
I think 165kts is a little fast, even if you are flying a fighter jet.

Cheers,
SU37Berkut
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Post by harkonnen » Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:28 pm

I find that when I'm flaring I'm almost always dropping throttle at the same time...and I'm within a few feet of the runway at most for that last, weak flare before touching down (Cessna) just so. If you flare (pitch up) while too much thrust is still being applied, naturally you will start to rise. Try dropping that throttle right down just an instant before flaring, and keep the flare close to touchdown.....it's worth a try for smoother landings.
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Post by shaunlibby » Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:37 pm

if i go to 140kts it stalls at flaps 30 but thats maximum on a posky, how do you use spoilers and how would you use them on a 747.

cheers got to go i am quite tired and got school tommorow, ill drop a line before i leave. see you in 8 hours :wink:

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Post by SU37Berkut » Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:44 pm

Dear Shaunlibby,

To use spoilers, just press the (/) key.
I don't know if you would want to use them though, if you stall at 140kts.

Cheers,
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Post by tropicalfish » Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:41 pm

Do not flare too far from the runway. Flare when you are close to the runway so you don't fly off again, and idle the throttle kinda before your flare.

Spoilers, deploy those when you touch down. Do that by pressing the forward slash button (/) to the left of the shift key.
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Post by skipperdan » Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:12 am

I think that you will learn a great deal about aviation if you review these videos. Each of these "brief previews" is free and will wet you appetite to take the next step if you choose to further your education. 8) 8)

I normally put in a plug to encourage students to go to the library to check out a book. However, I am going to deviate from the norm today and recommend that you review some videos.

http://www.kingschools.com/webVideo/VideoArchives.asp

There is even a video called: Landings-round outs and flares

PS: I recently enrolled in a 10 week Ground School which is being held at the Clearwater-St Petersburg Airport. During the first class the instructor made a very intelligent comment which I totally support. Microsoft Flight Simulator software is a Simular and not a game.
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Post by Cat1 » Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:29 am

Ok... You do not want to deploy the spoilers on this aircraft unless you want to:
A.) Slow down quickly, this is not what the spoilers are for.
B.) Drop like a rock and have a heck of a time trying to recover.

I think you know how the spoilers work due to the vid link you posted.
Controlling them and reverse thrust by changing the Auto Brake function numbers.

I just tried to make two approaches for a landing at KSEA in the POSKY 747-400 Polar Air Cargo aircraft and I crashed both times. This aircraft does stall @ 140 with 30 degrees of flap in it. Which to me is a bit weird, but I don't have the inclination to change it.
I popped the spoilers in flight and I lost about 20 knots and around 500 feet by the time they had fully deployed, so they work almost as expected.

The attitude of the aircraft was significantly tail heavy. I took off from KPDX (Portland, Oregon) and crashed short of KSEA both times. The aircraft was at 9.5 degrees nose up during the entire flight, I was at 8,000 feet and flying 240 knots true airspeed, this is also weird to me. I can't think of a good reason that a 9.5 AOA would need to be maintained at that altitude and speed, unless the model needs to rebalanced and I did not check the CG at all.

But from a flare aspect, it looked like 7 to 9.5 degrees was about optimal right up until the trees and buildings got in the way and killed the back of the aircraft.
I didn't drag the tail across the ground, right up till it touched the nose down, it was a clean landing.
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Post by heeshung » Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:44 am

Flare enough to touch down smoothly. Depending on the weight of your aircraft, keep your speed under 180 and above 155 for the POSKY 744.

Flare enough so you don't slam into the ground but don't flare so much that you lift up again.
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Post by shaunlibby » Tue Nov 13, 2007 8:23 am

I will try these tips when i get home as i am in school at the moment, thanks for tips :D

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Post by serfatplap » Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:34 pm

need to reduce your speed just above stall speed at the end and stall gently on the runway.

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Post by Cat1 » Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:49 am

serfatplap wrote:need to reduce your speed just above stall speed at the end and stall gently on the runway.
This is an oxymoron, there is no way to stall a 747 gently. Especially when it stalls at 140 knots.
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Post by heeshung » Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:28 am

Y'know, when I was a beginner in FS2004 (I don't know if I still am), I thought it was okay to stall too, but just before touching down, especially in Cessnas. Sure, a Cessna could probably handle a small stall right before touchdown, but not any heavy, especially not a 747.

What led me to believe stalls were okay? Rod from the FS2000 Pilot's Handbook. "Stalling is okay as long as you're only a couple inches above the ground." It may be for a beginner pilot learning to fly in a small prop plane, but obviously not in a 747, or any passenger jet for that matter.
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Post by shaunlibby » Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:36 pm

I still seem to be landing hard, at 165 kts/flaps 30<--full/throttles idle-speed brake deployed at full when i am over the just over the runway. if you flare do you land softly ?

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Post by Cat1 » Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:03 pm

What is your rate of descent during all this? Please don't tell me it's anything over 200 FPM. It sounds like you are still landing hard because that number is not changing.

Can you take a screen shot of the 2D flight deck when you are all set up for the approach and post it here.

I'm almost willing to bet that it is around 500 to 800 FPM. :wink:
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Post by shaunlibby » Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:29 pm

Cat1 wrote:What is your rate of descent during all this? Please don't tell me it's anything over 200 FPM. It sounds like you are still landing hard because that number is not changing.

Can you take a screen shot of the 2D flight deck when you are all set up for the approach and post it here.

I'm almost willing to bet that it is around 500 to 800 FPM. :wink:
i dont think it show the descend rate on APP Mode

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Post by FSPilot06 » Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:05 pm

Here's my thoughts on flaring correctly. First, you must be able to tell many feet or so you are above the runway. This can be very difficult in FS2004. Once you learn how to gage this visual trick, start raising the nose S L O W L Y. You have to extremely careful and SMOOTH with your elevator movements at this point, for too much elevator could cause your aircraft to "baloon" i.e rise. This is a very easy mistake to make in a light airplane, like my 182. I'm not sure how a 747 would react never tried :? . As far as how much to pitch nose is concerned, that will vary slightly with payload, headwind component, temperature, etc. And spoilers......I heard you should only deploy them once you're on the ground, to keep the aircraft from trying to fly again and t slow it dwon. Reverse thrust helps too. During the flare, allow the aircraft to slow so it can touchdown nice and smooth.

Hope we're being help to you 8)
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Post by shaunlibby » Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:19 pm

yeh you guys are all helping its just when i go try it something wrong ends up happening

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Post by heeshung » Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:32 pm

Yes, I do. If you flare too much, you rise up and lose airspeed. Not enough, and you slam into the ground. Why are you using spoilers BEFORE landing?
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Post by shaunlibby » Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:36 pm

heeshung wrote:Yes, I do. If you flare too much, you rise up and lose airspeed. Not enough, and you slam into the ground. Why are you using spoilers BEFORE landing?
i thought you were supposed to use spoilers before landing

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Post by Cat1 » Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:52 pm

Um... No, that is not the puropse of spoliers. You shouldn't be using them as speed brakes.
Spoilers disrupt the folw of air over the upper surface of the wing, thus causing the wing to loose lift. This will make you land hard.

If you look at the landing from inside the plane you will see the VVI gauge (Vertical Velocity Indicator) this gauge will tell you how fiat you are climbing or descending. It doesn't matter what phase of flight you are in or what buttons you push, it will always tell you this information.
It is on the lower right hand side of the primary display.
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Post by shaunlibby » Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:31 pm

im not sure where it is on this panel Image

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Post by FSPilot06 » Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:42 pm

Like I said, use spoilers once you're on the ground. Spoilers aren't speedbrakes. Speedbrakes are speedbrakes. Also, remember the golden rules: Raise the nose to decrease airspeed, lower the nose to increase airspeed. Use these words of wisdom to your advantage when descending.
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Post by heeshung » Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:27 am

If you've ever taken any airliner, you'll notice those panels on top of the wing slam up AFTER touchdown.

The VVI, as Cat1 calls it, or VSI, for Vertical Speed Indicator, is right next to your primary altitude display. It looks like a black bar with a green marker. The green marker moves up and down the bar depending on your ascent rate or descent rate.
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Post by shaunlibby » Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:54 am

the 747 was descending at 600feet per minute just before the runway.

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Post by Denholm » Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:34 pm

Another issue could be your resolution, if that picture is an exact match to what you see in-game it would be difficult to fly and land. Try adjusting your resolution to 800x600 on the in-game options.

Now for the actual landing. It could be the special posky 747 model you have. Try using a default 747 and see if your landings are any better. Set AutoBrakes to 1 so that when you hit the ground the brakes activate. Once you do hit the ground activate reverse thrust by holding down F2, when you need it to stop increase throttle and then bring it back to idle. Also remember that when you hit the runway you activate the spoilers ( / ). NOT before, when you hit the runway.

So, here should be a quick checklist for landing.

GEAR - Down
AutoBrakes - 1 (If it's a long runway)
Spoilers - down (Not deployed)

Once you hit the runway:

Spoilers - up (Deployed)
Reverse Thrust - set (Hold down F2)

And as I said, try it with a default 747-400. This is just to determine if there's something wrong with your Posky 747, because I have never stalled a 747 at 140 knots. And that's on max realism.
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Post by shaunlibby » Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:31 pm

thanks for all the advice. Still flaring is hard with keyboard...does the joystick make much difference, as i hope to get the saitek x52 at christmas.

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Post by shaunlibby » Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:09 pm

Denholm wrote:Another issue could be your resolution, if that picture is an exact match to what you see in-game it would be difficult to fly and land. Try adjusting your resolution to 800x600 on the in-game options.

Now for the actual landing. It could be the special posky 747 model you have. Try using a default 747 and see if your landings are any better. Set AutoBrakes to 1 so that when you hit the ground the brakes activate. Once you do hit the ground activate reverse thrust by holding down F2, when you need it to stop increase throttle and then bring it back to idle. Also remember that when you hit the runway you activate the spoilers ( / ). NOT before, when you hit the runway.

So, here should be a quick checklist for landing.

GEAR - Down
AutoBrakes - 1 (If it's a long runway)
Spoilers - down (Not deployed)

Once you hit the runway:

Spoilers - up (Deployed)
Reverse Thrust - set (Hold down F2)

And as I said, try it with a default 747-400. This is just to determine if there's something wrong with your Posky 747, because I have never stalled a 747 at 140 knots. And that's on max realism.
i tried with the default 747 at 140kts full flaps and i still stalled. :(

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Post by heeshung » Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:15 pm

Personally, 140 is a bit slow for my tastes (hence the stalling). What weight and percentage of fuel are you using? The default 100% that's way over gross weight?
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