Freezing Fuel

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Boldpilot
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Freezing Fuel

Post by Boldpilot » Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:23 am

What prevents the fuel freezing on High altitude long distance flights and does it happen in FS9, Thanks. BP

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Post by rd » Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:10 am

Think of it this way......

Does the gas in your car freeze when it is subzero degrees??? Nope. How about the oil in your engine??? Same answer...Nope. The fluids are of such to combat freezing. Whether it be fuel to run it, or oil to keep it lubricated.

I am an engineer, but when it comes to fluids, and why they don't freeze in sub-zero climates, when they should, beats me.

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Post by Cat1 » Tue Dec 04, 2007 5:39 pm

The answer is simple...
There is anti-freeze mixed in jet fuel.
The fuel itself won't freeze because it is a hydrocarbon, but the water that is contained in it will freeze and that is why the anti-freeze is added.
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If you want to learn how to fly IFR and land with ILS or have any questions about IFR/ILS. Click this link and the information is there: http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/avia ... _handbook/

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Freezing Fuel

Post by Boldpilot » Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:52 pm

G'day guys, I have just installed a Polski Legacy and while reading the "instructions" I came across this snippet, see attachment , Don't engineers study Cryogenics RD, Thanks BP
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Legacy Fuel Freeze.JPG

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Freezing Fuel

Post by Boldpilot » Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:12 pm

Hi Cat ,if anti-freeze is added to the fuel ,is this a general thing on all fuels ,is it Ethylene Glycol which is added . Is it put in at the fuel manufacture ??.BP

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Post by Cat1 » Tue Dec 04, 2007 9:06 pm

Yes, it is ethylene glycol.

Two links to read up un it...
Fuel Specification.
http://assist.daps.dla.mil/quicksearch/ ... umber=5558

Anti-Freeze specification.
http://assist.daps.dla.mil/quicksearch/ ... mber=34816

Enjoy :D
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Post by rd » Tue Dec 04, 2007 9:06 pm

. JP-4 JET FUEL

a. JP is the abbreviation for jet propulsion. The number behind JP has no significant value, it is simply the order in which the fuel was accepted by the military.

b. JP-4 is a blend of gasoline, kerosene and light distillants. The gasoline hydrocarbons in JP-4 cause an extremely low flash point of approximately minus 20 degrees Fahrenheit.

(1) Because of JP-4's low volatility, the vapor-air mixtures of such fuel in stationary tanks may not be too rich to ignite at sea level pressure when temperatures are between minus 35 degrees and 80 degrees Fahrenheit. Where flammable mixtures occur, any ignition at the vent outlets can enter the tank and cause a violent explosion. For this reason JP-4 is not used aboard Navy ships.

(2) There are no dyes added to JP-4. Instead, they are a natural color as received from the refineries. This color may vary from water-clear to a light straw color.

(3) JP-4 weighs approximately 6.6 pounds per gallon.

(4) JP-4 has a freezing point of minus 72 degrees Fahrenheit.

3. JP-5 JET FUEL

a. JP-5 is a kerosene type fuel with low volatility and a high flash point of approximately 140 degrees Fahrenheit.

b. At normal temperatures and atmospheric pressures, the vapor-and-air mixtures above the liquid in closed tanks are too lean to support combustion; however, JP-5 will burn when heated, sprayed, or when absorbed in clothing, rags, etc.

c. JP-5 is the same color as JP-4.

d. JP-5 weights approximately 6.8 pounds per gallon and has a freezing point of minus 51 degrees Fahrenheit.

e. JP-5 is used for Navy shipboard and fleet support shore activities.

4. JP-8 JET FUEL

a. JP-8 is a kerosene type fuel suitable for most turbine engined aircraft. It has a flash point of 100 degrees F and a freezing point of –47 degrees C.

b. JP-8 is clear, bright, and luminescent in color.

c. JP-8 weights approximately 6.8 pounds per gallon.

Ethlene glycol is not added to lower the freezing point in any fuel used for JET aircraft. And I cannot see a need for it in piston type fuels either. Therefore as the above shows, the freeze point is well below what the actual fuel will see. BUT.... Some a/c do have fuel heaters in the tanks to keep the fuel at a stable temp.

Diethylene glycol is used though, for spec fuels. It is commonly known as DiEGGME. Used mostly in JP4 and JP5.

Now for your car and gasoline. You can have your fuel line freeze. However, it is not the gasoline that freezes. It is the water in the gas tank, that gets into the fuel line that freezes. Since gas and water does not mix, water settles at the bottom of the tank, usually where the fuel pickup is. If a decent amount of water is in the fuel line, and your car is outside in 10 degree weather, it will freeze.

Diesel is different. While it will not freeze, it will gel. And if it does, then guess what. Your going no where. That is why they make 3 types of diesel fuels. One for summer, and 2 for winter. The are classified as 1D (used during the winter months) 2D used in normal climates and weather. The third has really no name for it. But it is the mixture of 1D and 2D, for use also in cold climates, but not extreme cold climates.

Does that help any???

RD

EDIT: Seems me and Cat were posting at the same time....lol
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Post by FSPilot06 » Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:17 pm

Let's see..... I had an old go kart that I drove in the winter time. Some mornings when I would pull it out, it would be close to 10 degrees outside. That was regular unleaded gasoline. (87 octane). Gasoline doesn't freeze to easy. Water will. This is one reason you always check your fuel for water contamination. Also, any fluid will freeze or boil easier when under low pressure, like at high altitudes. But sense the fuel is trapped inside the fuel tanks, where pressure is only slightly higher that atmospheric, it won't freeze so easily.

And last, since whe're in cruise flight, the fuel is always flowing, therefor giving the molecules very little time to bond together tightly to form a solid state of matter.

Sometimes anti freezes can be added to jet fuels, but it probably isn't the same that cars run. Because car anti-freeze is ment to be mixed with water, not kerosene.
Flying is not dangerous. If you don't trust something that has to be supported by air, stay out of a car unless it has solid tires. And believe me, those kind of tires don't ride good at all.

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Freezing Fuel

Post by Boldpilot » Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:38 am

What do you do if you are short on fuel in your jet aircraft and the base only has gasoline, do you use this fuel??BP { not beepee]

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Post by Cat1 » Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:41 pm

Not normally would you ever use AVGas in a turbine engine.
In some cases it can be done but it really shouldn't.
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Post by FSPilot06 » Thu Dec 06, 2007 2:57 am

I wouldn't try it. It IS possible though. Kerosene has way different catylytic effects than gasonline and would probably over heat the engine, provide poor power control, and cause gumming up inside of it. Also carbon build up would occur.
Flying is not dangerous. If you don't trust something that has to be supported by air, stay out of a car unless it has solid tires. And believe me, those kind of tires don't ride good at all.

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Freezing Fuel

Post by Boldpilot » Thu Dec 06, 2007 2:59 am

At the beginning of my RAF training ,which was at the beginning of the jet era ,we were told ,as a stopgap measure Avgas could be used providing two gallons of engine oil was added to every 100 gallons of avgas .The oil was added to prevent seizing up of the fuel pump pistons and cylinders.BP

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Post by Cat1 » Thu Dec 06, 2007 4:46 pm

That still stands today, I have noticed in some of the aircraft operation manuals that it has procedures for using avgas.
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